Podcast

Episode 1 – Injury Recovery, Pain, & Placebo Effect

Recovering from Injury
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This is officially episode #1 of our Konga Fitness podcast! We have a lot to say, and we finally did it. I’m excited to introduce you to my first guest, Mahmoud. He’s a dear friend of mine. Without his help, this podcast wouldn’t have been possible. In this episode, we talk about everything from sports, to recovering from injury, placebo effects, pain, the state of healthcare, and more! Thanks so much for tuning in, we hope you enjoy this episode!

Below is our conversation:

Ali Dib [00:00:18] So this is literally the first ever podcast of Konga Fitness, something we’ve been thinking about for a year now, but we’re finally doing it, which is great. Mahmoud is a great friend of mine, some of whom I spent some time getting to really know.

Ali Dib [00:00:34] He’s great because he’s a jack of all trades man. This guy knows what he’s doing with photography, videography, web site fixes, mechanic, you name it. He does it. And that’s why I think he’s a really good person to talk to… Because he’s a perfect person to talk to if you want to know anything about anything, right? But a little backstory about Mahmoud, like he’s someone who does jujitsu. So he’s a purple belt.

Mahmoud C. [00:01:03] So I’ve I’ve been I had been practicing jujitsu for about seven or eight years. Prior to getting the purple belt. Right, so closer to 10 years when I got the purple belt. But yeah, I’ve been I’ve been off now because of a back injury recovery. So I’ve gotten knee pain and back pain. So I’ve been avoiding jujitsu, because if you are not taking care of your body, especially in a sport like jujitsu, if you’re not taking care of your body, taking time to stretch and warming up prior to getting on the mats, it’s a recipe for disaster. Obviously, I didn’t take care of my body. That’s where we’re at right now.

Ali Dib [00:01:55] I mean, that’s the punchline, right? Every single sport has its problems with injuries and stuff like that. Jujitsu is just a little bit more because it’s a little more impact. There’s a lot of unknowns with how you’re going to fall on your back. From my experience at least, it’s like jujitsu has a lot of back pain and knee pain problems. Right? Because you’re always curling up. So they have what is known as a guard position when you’re on your back and someone could be really putting a lot of their body weight onto you and gravity’s kind of helping them do it as well. It’s just really crunching the back. So a lot of the top jujitsu guys too always complain of back pains have these back surgeries. To fuse their discs because of all the injuries from inherently the problems of jujitsu, which has always been on your back. But you’ve had back pain. You’ve been doing it for with it for quite some time. I just want to touch upon like, you know. What are some of the things you’ve tried to kind of deal with the back pain? Reduce the pain. Was there anything that really worked well? And if so, how?

Mahmoud C. [00:02:58] Mostly it’s stretching. That’s what I’ve done. I have attempted to strengthen muscles in the back. I find that when I start to do that, because I don’t necessarily have guidance in doing it. So when I start to do that, it really tightens up my back and then it flares up. So unless I’m actually with someone who can guide me through the exercises. It’s one of those things you know like, sometimes you’re your own worst enemy. You go to the gym, you think you could do more than you can do and you push a weight that you would have normally done, but it’s not necessarily the weight that you should be doing, especially with the current state of your body. So that’s what that’s what happens with me. Stretching is huge. Stretching and movement. Just movement, like I played soccer the other day. I felt amazing after moving, you know, like I’ve got I’ve got bad sciatica on my left hand side. And when I find that whenever I walk or whenever I run or whatever, whatever the case might be, as long as I’m moving my lower part of the body. I’m so much better off than than actually sitting on the couch and getting stiff. And that’s what’s helped me. So it’s the motion.

Ali Dib [00:04:32] And it’s a huge revelation. And I think most people are aware of the fact that motion is lotion in a sense, that it’s just going to loosen everything up, right? But it’s just I don’t know why people don’t think to do it. It’s like, okay they know what to do but why aren’t they doing it? You touched upon something before, which is like you do want to go to the gym and strengthen because, you know, you have to strengthen. But sometimes you’ll strengthen something and it will get a little too tight. And you’re thinking, OK, am I doing the right thing or not? So a big part of it is just finding the right guidance. Who can you go to to kind of like talk about: What should I do about my low back? Is it just stretching? Or do I actually have to strengthen it as well? And me being a physiotherapist and I’m like “dude, like stretching is good”. But you got to strengthen it, too, because the strength, the stretching is only going to get you so far. It’s like great. Your muscles can lengthen. Well, how how are those muscles going to support you when you need the most? And that’s through strengthening. We also fall victim to like what to do for strengthening.

Ali Dib [00:05:36] There’s so many different ways to strengthen the body in a lot of the times when you’re dealing with back pain it’s: What’s the right thing to start with? Do you go right away to do a leg press or like a squat. Like you may have touched upon. Or do you start with just like the very basic low back strengthening exercises, like those hyper extensions where you just working on those glutes. Getting those lumbar extensor really fired up, but very low impact and to the point where it’s not going to really get you stiff, right? So I think that’s the important thing to kind of figure out. It’s like, OK, it’s not just stretching. Maybe I should consult someone. And then when there is strengthening, what are the right things to do? Right. But this kind of leads to my next question is like, what’s something that you’ve tried on your own that maybe works surprisingly well? I mean, like there’s so many different devices out there. Like you’ve got the Teater, you’ve got the pso-rite. You’ve got all these different little things. It’s just like I’m almost starting to believe that a lot of people are just getting in on this fad. I just want to get your take on it.

Mahmoud C. [00:06:32] So I bought the pso-rite.

Ali Dib [00:06:33] Oh, you did eh?

Mahmoud C. [00:06:34] I bought the pso-rite.

Ali Dib [00:06:37] How’d you found out about it?

Mahmoud C. [00:06:39] Joe Rogan. Name dropped another podcast, right? The Joe Rogan podcast. I bought the pso-rite and that’s the problem, is that you don’t know whether it’s mental. Like is it just a mental thing? I can’t tell you. I can’t.

Ali Dib [00:06:57] Like the sugar pill. Was it a placebo effect?

Mahmoud C. [00:06:58] Was it the placebo, right? Because I bought it. I used it that night and I got up and I was like, oh, man. Felt amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Right. And then the next day, I was like, oh, back to normal. Like, Oh, here we go. Back to normal. Right. So still stiff again. Still fit, whatever. It’s not going to fix it. I don’t know if it’s going to fix it. I don’t know. I’m not saying that the pso-rite doesn’t help, I’m sure it helps. Even if even if all it did was make me feel better in that moment. You know, I think you’ve mentioned this before where it’s like even if that’s all something does to get you up and moving again so that you can start doing the exercises that you need to do, then that’s probably better than nothing.

Ali Dib [00:07:51] Hey, listen man. The placebo effect is the most powerful effect on Earth. It’s the reason why drug companies make so much money. It’s because, you can take a sugar pill thinking it’s Tylenol that’s going to fix your pain if it affects you to the point where you believe it’s going to help you, right? and I think with something like the pso-rite is like it’s a little bit of both, actually. So the way pso-rite works is that it’s supposed to put pressure into your Psoas muscle, which is a hip flexor muscle. So you basically lie down stomach first and you got these two little things you just dig into you gravity-assisted. You’re lying down, gravity just pushes you down. And so it’s very passive thing. And you’re putting what is known as temporary ischemia on the muscle. So you’re starving the muscle of oxygen so that it can relax. A lot of people who have back pain have back pain because of a tight of hip flexor. All right. So why is the hip flexor affecting your lower back you’re probably wondering, right? it’s like everything’s connected. If you look at the anatomy of the psoas muscle, that one that that pso-rite is trying to target, it’s targeting this muscle that actually attaches to your lumbar spine. You will think that if it influences your hips, but that muscle actually also attaches to your lower back. So when it gets tight, it’s not only affecting your hips, it’s actually affecting your lower back. And if you use something like a pso-rite properly, it may have that therapeutic effect of calming down that muscle, loosening it up. And then you feel great. Right?

Ali Dib [00:09:21] OK. So it’s like perfect. It’s affecting something that may actually be helping you apart from the placebo effect. But then you touched upon something really interesting is like great. I feel great. Next day stiff again. So that’s something that I want to address because my answer to that is always it depends. OK. So you felt great. Yeah. What did you do after? Did you do something after? That’s not going to influence the joints with the low back rate because the muscle can be stiff and it’s going to limit your joints ability to move. But then you lose some muscle. It’s not stopping your joints from moving anymore. Right. Did you then do what we call Cat-Camels or Knee Rocks that are going to get your spine to like bend forward, bend back, rotate. Did you give the joints a chance to kind of move? And I think that’s where a lot people go wrong as they think you get the relief and that’s it. But my friends, I implore everyone to believe this. That pain is just a signal. You get rid of pain. It’s not necessarily fixing something. It’s just telling you, you may have done something right. Or you may have confused the body, which is another problem, too, because there are a lot of modalities out there where it’s going to shock you. It’s going to you’re going to put a cream on and it’s going to be like, oh, you know, I feel this heat. Yeah, it’s just masking the pain. And is that really what we’re trying to do with pain? No man. We’re trying to fix something here, right? So it’s interesting. Now, that kind of leads me to my next question. So say, OK. We talked about something physical. Have you tried anything like supplemental?  Anything that’s worked in terms of ingesting a nutritional supplement or something like that?

Mahmoud C. [00:10:57] So I use collagen. And right now in terms of back pain, doesn’t do anything in terms of back pain. But I’ve always had joint pain in regards to my knees and so had an ACL surgery on my knee before. And you never feel confident after the surgery, you never feel confident. You can never like. It’s one of it’s a it’s a mental game at that point.

Ali Dib [00:11:28] Sorry. I just want to ask, like in terms of the surgery, was it a reconstruction?

Mahmoud C. [00:11:32] So so they replaced the ACL. OK. So whatever that might be, I think they took like something from the hamstring, like a string through that from.

Ali Dib [00:11:42] OK. They’ve got a graft from the hamstring and then put it as your normal ACL.

Mahmoud C. [00:11:46] So right. Right down the middle of whatever. Whatever they do. But you never feel 100 percent confident about your physical actions after. Right. So if I was running a race, I’m always mindful that I don’t actually go my 100 percent. I’ll go 90 percent, right. I’ll never go 100. And and so, you know, you’ll never peak physically in terms of a sport. Like you’ll never actually show what you’re fully made of in terms of a sport. But at the same time, at the very least, you’re actually playing. So it’s one of those things. It’s a common problem. It’s OK. Yeah, I’m sure. I’m sure it’s a common problem. Right. But anyway, the collagen in has helped me. I feel that has helped me recover in terms of if I play a sport, it’s no longer three or four days of joint pain. It’s maybe a day of joint pain and it’s not as intense.

Ali Dib [00:12:58] How long have you been taking collagen for so far?

Mahmoud C. [00:13:01] I’m probably four months now. And I think I think they say that you’re supposed to take it for like after the first two or three weeks, you should start to feel some effects. But, you know, I take it almost every day now. Because I know how I feel after.

Ali Dib [00:13:29] And like you look at the body of evidence behind things like collagen, glucosamine, chondroitin, these are all supplements that people have historically taken over the past 10, 20 years for joint pain. The theory behind it is that all these things I mention are building blocks to your cartilage, right? So the problem with the joints is that while not a problem necessarily, but the joints are lined by what is known as the articular cartilage. It’s a very smooth surface that lets things just move really well. Over time with a lot of ground and pound on your joints and stuff like that. What happens is the joint surfaces of the knee might get a little close. And then it starts like rubbing on that cartilage. And then over time, what happens, especially if you have a history of recovering from injury where it was like a traumatic, you know, hitting of the two joints surfaces as you get wear and tear to the cartilage. Now, why does the body not do a good job of repairing cartilage is because there’s not a lot a lot of blood on the cartilage. And there’s a lot of theories as to why the cartilage itself doesn’t have a lot of blood flow. But the main indicator of whether a tissue can recover is its blood flow. So the amount of oxygen that can be shunted to send tissue at a given point. What people think is that taking these supplements will be able to kind of give those joints a building block without the need for a blood flow as much. But there’s a lot of conflicting research on that. It’s interesting that you’re saying that the college is actually creating noticeable effects. And it was almost right away that you noticed, right? Yeah, I remember, we had a conversation more before about, you know, you were taking for a week and like you noticed that you weren’t as sore. And we had the whole discussion about placebo and like how much of it is placebo? How much of it is the actual collagen? But it’s interesting that you’ve had that benefit from using a supplement where research would tell you that, OK. Maybe it’s just placebo. So it’s something that I wish that research will kind of like fully revisit and see, you know, is there a way they can track to see, like how that collagen’s influencing your joints right? But it’s great like for months and like you’re feeling good after so good.

Mahmoud C. [00:15:39] So when I was doing a like a physical checkup at the doctor’s and they said so are you on anything? I said not nothing really, just collagen. And they looked at me and they laughed. They laughed about it. They laughed. I’m like listen, I’ve had this conversation with a friend of mine. I know that the science behind it is not necessarily there in the medical field yet. But even if it’s placebo, I’ll pay for the placebo. Like like at that point, you know, if I feel better mentally, which makes me feel better physically or I believe I feel better physically, then fine. I’ll take it. Everyone everyone needs that edge. You know, I think if you can get that edge just take it.

Ali Dib [00:16:28] I agree with you. And it’s just I find a lot of professionals get stuck on research. Like like what helps with research, what is backed up by research. What we have to understand is a lot of things that we do as treatment is really hard to study. But we know anecdotally it helps. Right. For example, one of the things I use a lot of is deep tissue work, you know. A lot of physiotherapists don’t use as much deep tissue work, and it kind of boggles my mind. But it’s like when you use deep tissue work, you’re able to kind of get the superficial tissues out the way you can affect the joints more and where we focus more of our attention. Right. Right. But a lot of the reason why they don’t use these tissue work is that there isn’t a lot of research behind deep tissue work, oddly enough. OK. But I know anecdotally that when I release someone’s TFL muscle, for example, which is like a muscle that’s like tight and everyone who has IT Band syndrome, they could automatically get a lot more hip internal rotation. And they say, well, I don’t get I don’t get how research doesn’t show this. But here’s the reason why it’s like it’s so subjective. One person releasing a TFL can be completely different than how another person releases it. Even if they’re instructed to do it the exact same way, the person that you’re treating now is going to be different. You can’t treat the same person over and over and over again. It has to be like a group of people. Right? And they can share the same demographics, age, occupation, stress levels, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it’s like you can’t replicate it in research. It’s really hard to study. But there’s a lot of merit to it. And so what I believe is that you’ve got to combine research with experience, with anecdotal evidence. And anecdotal evidence is something that the medical profession doesn’t address as much of. Because it’s hard to research. My argument is that a lot of what we do is really hard to research. You can’t replicate it. But drugs, you can. Drugs are a lot easier. You can pretty much control the dose. You can control how it looks. You can make them believe a certain thing and you can explain to them the same way. And a lot of times most people react very similarly to drugs. So that’s why drugs are more heavily studied, I guess. Yeah, but yes.

Mahmoud C. [00:18:47] Well plus it makes them money. That’s what it is when it comes down to it.

Ali Dib [00:18:50] Yes. I mean at the end of the day, it’s just like…

Mahmoud C. [00:18:53] It’s a money game, right.

Ali Dib [00:18:54] Especially for those iffy ones like you know, drugs for pain, drug for muscle spasms, blah blah. But yeah it’s like with mental disorders there’s a big stigma behind it. A) like you know, how much do we understand it, B) because we don’t understand it so much, is it, you know, ethical to use a lot of these drugs? So, man, it’s the pharmaceutical industry. I don’t want to say it’s our enemies as people who use an alternative approach. But a lot of time we do conflict with what I say versus what they say. So it’s really interesting.

Mahmoud C. [00:19:32] Yeah. Yeah. Look, you can’t you can’t write it off. I mean, you can’t write off pharmaceuticals, they help. They’re beneficial. Right. It’s just a matter of like if you can solve your problem without taking these pills, then, OK, it’s going to take you time, but this is the better route.

Ali Dib [00:19:54] And that’s that’s pretty much the perfect answer. I can’t put it any better myself. It’s like if you don’t need to use it to start, try the alternative approach first. If it’s a life or death thing, or if it’s a very specific drug for a disorder like diabetes where you need your insulin shots, that’s where pharmaceuticals really, really help and have actually advanced our lifespans even. Right. Like a lot of the vaccines have saved many lives. And like there’s obviously a huge debate to that as well. But like when it comes to like the very iffy ones, like mental, you know, disorders or like just pain, now you’re getting to the point where just like you needed. Have you tried other approaches? Because the side effects are a problem, too, right. And you look at all the organs that, you know, take a beating from things like prolonged Advil use, a pregnant lady cannot take it. Yeah, right. But they go through a lot of pain. So you got to start exploring reasons, you know, as to why we’re even even using the drugs. Is pain a bad thing sometimes? No. That actually pain could be a helpful signal. We talked about it before. It’s just like pain gets such a bad rep too. Pain is our body telling us do it, do something about it. It may not be taking a drug to remove the pain signal itself, but like do something. So yeah, that’s just my take on drugs too. Like you. You nailed it on the confidence. Just like if there’s an alternative approach where it’s a little more natural, why not try that first? Yeah, if you can. But if it’s life or death, of course that’s where you know drugs may help. Yeah, that’s it’s an interesting the something that maybe we talk about some other time, but I wanted to kind of get back to like you know, you’re back and your knee pain just like I know it’s because it’s something that a lot of people have to deal with, right? Yeah. And there’s so much unknown, like, you know, about what to do. But you mentioned that you stretched. Yeah. There’s that whole strengthening. Are you doing currently anything right now in terms of strengthening specifically, that’s working particularly well for you. And if so, what is it?

Mahmoud C. [00:22:01] Yes. So there’s there’s this thing called the reverse hyper, right? So the gym that I go to doesn’t have a machine, but you can try and mimic the movements within it. So there’s a machine that does the back extension where you’re just laying on a 45 degree angle almost. And you’re extending like this. So now if you were to reverse this, instead of your head being up here, your head’s down there and your feet are up here and you just swing your legs. So now you are somewhat mimicking a reverse hyper system, right? That I find helps a lot. And actually it tightens my back in a way where it doesn’t feel like its tight muscle. It just feels like it’s protected muscle now. It just feels like feels like OK. I’ve fortified my back and I can you know, I’ve got a little bit more stability right around my my core, my back, my whatever. And so it’s not the same tightness as I would get if I were to lift.  It’s not the same type of stiffness, which is an uncomfortable stiffness. It doesn’t feel good. It feels like I’ve done something wrong. Right. The other one is more like I’m stable now. So, yes, that fake reverse hyper basically. Right.

Ali Dib [00:23:53] Fake or maybe the real way of doing it. And for those who don’t know what the reverse hyper is, it’s this machine that was created by world renowned powerlifter, I don’t remember his name. And I think his first name’s Louie. He had the worst low back you’d imagine. The power lifters, heaviest squats, heaviest deadlifts. And he’s old school. Right. So they didn’t know a lot in terms of like low back prevention, in terms of low back injury prevention. Right. So they were just like pound the weights and like lots compressions going on in the low back. So out of necessity, this man, with the worst back pain, just said forget it. I’m going to create this device. And it’s the simplest thing ever, right? Yeah, but what it does is it does a couple of things. You’re strengthening your glutes with it because you’re using your hip to extend it. So you’re using your your hip muscles to help lift up the weight. Right. But here’s what’s different about this workout is on the way down, you actually want your legs to come down fast in a controlled manner, not like you’re just like loose, but you’re letting it go fast because that’s going to build a little momentum so that your legs go forward. And then at that moment your back is now decompressing. So here’s a problem with backs (in general). They must withstand gravity 24/7, especially when you’re standing. Right. So a lot of compression, pressure, compression, everything we do is compression. We lift weights, you know, compression, you know, when do we not compress? Right. There’s two ways. One is the way you mentioned. Another one just sleeping, right? Right. So, oddly enough, when you wake up from a, you know, a good night’s sleep, you get a little bit taller. Yeah. And your back’s actually looser. This machine replicates that experience. But in a mechanical way where you’re actually forcing it to happen. So the way you can get around to doing that workout without needing the machine is the way you mentioned. Right. But it’s a great machine to kind of, you know, create that stability in the back. There’s that difference between a good pump in the back and a bad one. Right. And the bad ones usually, you can probably attest to this, but it’s like a deep one. It feels like if you move, you can’t. Whereas the healthier one is just a little more diffuse. It’s more superficial. And the back feels like it’s got you know, it’s just like it’s there to protect you. It’s buddy buddy with you. You know, so it’s like it’s a different kind of feeling, right?

Mahmoud C. [00:26:23] It’s good. I mean there’s obviously things that you can do to help your situation, whether you have a knee problem or a back problem or whatever the case is. Right. It takes work. That’s what it takes. It takes work. There’s no magic pill. You know, like we all know someone who is always looking for that magic pill. Right. But that doesn’t exist. Right. It’s always about. How much time are you willing to put in to fix your problem. Right. And the more time you put in, the better your situation will be. Right. Anything and anything you do in life, you take the time to approach the situation. You’re better off, right.

Ali Dib [00:27:07] You’re not in the industry of rehab or professional, you know, treatment. Yeah, but you reached out to the professionals, like you’ve reached out to physiotherapy. You’ve done chiropractic. You’ve reached out to personal trainers. Like our own personal trainers. Like you’ve worked with Konga before. So what you’re doing is you’re saying, listen, I’m going to look for where the source of knowledge is for this one thing and I’m going to get the best advice possible. Right. Because this is what these guys do. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I stress this out because a lot of people don’t do that for their health, but they’ll do it when they’re being sued. So they” approach a lawyer, you know, or if they don’t know how to have to like, you know, manage their numbers for their business, they’ll go to an accountant. Right. They want to learn how to dance. They go to a dance instructor. But oddly enough, when it comes to health and movement, people don’t have that push to reach out to professionals, someone who knows it more than anyone else. Right. And unfortunately, they go to the doctor, the medical doctor, the general practitioner, where it is free for everyone. Right. In Ontario, you have OHIP. Now, don’t get me wrong, a lot of people have coverage and stuff like that through their employers. But when they go to that doctor, they always have in mind the doctor will know exactly how to fix me in terms of movement, back pain, knee pain, all these things, when in actuality they don’t deal with orthopedic injuries as much as a physiotherapist or a chiropractor will. A personal trainer. A high level personal trainer will.

Mahmoud C. [00:28:38] Well, yeah, it’s not their specialty, right?

Ali Dib [00:28:40] It’s not their specialty. It’s not. But it’s within their scope, unfortunately. Right. And there are a lot of good doctors out there. But what I’m trying to say is you’ve got to go to the person who has the highest knowledge in that field. And it’s not going to be your general practitioner. Right.

Mahmoud C. [00:28:56] So and, you know, the human body is like I I always when I look at the human body, I always look at it as like a car. You know, there’s no difference between. I mean, there’s a lot of differences.

Ali Dib [00:29:08] But I mean, the main one is you can’t replace parts of the body.

Mahmoud C. [00:29:11] Well, I mean, they’re replacing parts now. So it is what it is, right. The thing is, you know, with a vehicle, you don’t want to just show up to your mechanic when your car is broken. You want to show up to do the regular maintenance so that your car doesn’t break, you know. And that’s what it’s about, right? Like I’ve got a 2007 Honda Civic. It’s three hundred plus thousand kilometers. The only major thing that I have done on that vehicle is an alternator. I replace that oil religiously. I maintain that vehicle religiously. Right. It’s gotten three hundred thousand kilometers. Generally, the vehicles that are getting two hundred thousand kilometers are like a you know, those are one offs nowadays. Right. Like people, these are disposable vehicles now. You know, you’re buying a car only to dispose of it in four or five years. That’s how they’re being built. But if you are actually taking the time to take it to your mechanic or a physiotherapist, because physiotherapy is not just about the actual rehab of a human body. Right. Prehab is a part of it.You know, you could speak to that.

Ali Dib [00:30:50] Here’s the thing. You’re a mechanic. You know this, right? I’m the physiotherapist. I know about prehab, right. It’s just like people have to A) they have to look for the knowledge and B) they have to just like I don’t want to use the word submit to it. But like, you know, just like pledge to the fact that whatever someone’s gonna tell you in that field is gonna do what’s best for you right. Nine times out of ten people are good people. Yeah, especially in a profession. They want what’s best for you. So you can trust that you can listen to, you know, a good mechanic or a good physiotherapist. But you said investment like it’s not just about treating and recovering from injury when it happens. In fact, a lot of injuries, if you do that, it’s usually too late. It’s not like a whole like, you know, a huge knee injury where you destroy ACL, you destroy meniscus, you destroy this and this and this. People think it’s just a freak accident. Right. But what they don’t see is, was the hip doing its job to protect the knee? Was the ankle doing its job to protect the knee? Right. Was the back doing its job, right? They don’t make that link and I don’t expect them to. Again, it comes down to how can we educate them – can we do a better job of educating the public that, you know, don’t just come to us just because you have an injury, come to us like for that repair, for that maintenance for the car. And I think that’s why this podcast is going to be a great option to do that because like. It’s how we’re going to try to get to the masses, right. And I feel like not enough people are talking about these things. So I think that’s kind of a great way to kind of end this podcast. Episode number one.

Ali Dib [00:32:30] I don’t know what I’m going to title it yet, but I guess we’ll think about that. But man, dude it was an honor to talk to you about all this (recovering from an injury, pain, placebo, etc.). Yeah. Hopefully we can do this again sometime.

Mahmoud C. [00:32:39] For sure. I’ll be back again.

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